These are the edited highlights of our interview with Volodymyr Zelensky, President of Ukraine, in his office on December 8, 2022. He began with the effects of the occupation. (You can also read our edited excerpts from an interview with General Valery Zaluzhny, Head of the Ukrainian Armed Forces.)
Volodymyr Zelensky: It’s kind of scary how much the liberated cities have changed. I used to visit such small towns even then [before the war]. I love them a lot. Then you come to free them and bear witness to what has been done to them.
Unfortunately, I have to admit that this Kremlin propaganda model works with horrific results. [Those who stayed] were cut off from communications and cut off from friends and relatives who had fled. And those who cannot leave are isolated. All of a sudden they get a [information] helmet put on the head – Bam! – and they have to live inside that helmet, like an astronaut. And it’s hard to fight it ’cause we show them how [Russians] save them and how Ukraine is bombing them, and “there, the Ukrainians are torturing someone”.
Everything is turned upside down and it is difficult to fight. And now, as we liberate these territories, we understand how they suffered, how they were broken, how they were tortured.
Unfortunately, I believe that if Ukraine had been recognized earlier, this tragedy could have been avoided.
The Economist:Where does Russian propaganda stop working? Is there a line?
VZ : It works beyond the borders of Ukraine, beyond the borders of Russia. It worked in the heart of Ukraine, in the heart of Russia, in Belarus, in Europe, in the United States, in Israel. It works in India, in China, in the Arab world. It’s like that. There is a format that works, just like the Goebbels format. It’s chauvinism, racism, everything.
This does not mean that those who succumb to this information are bad people. It’s just that it’s hard to fight misinformation. Books, information, media platforms, social networks: you have to take different information from different sources. This is a great job of countering Russian disinformation.
AND: Is it calmer today in Ukraine than at the beginning of the war?
VZ: Nope. In the East, we have a very difficult situation. It’s like World War II. It is the same in Bakhmut, in Soledar, the region near Kharkiv, Kremenna, Svatove. It’s a real war, with shooting, bombing, rockets, artillery, everything.
Then you have the south, in the Azov region, in the occupied territories, some villages in Zaporizhia. There is nothing, no electricity, no water, nothing. And in Kherson, people are so happy that we came, but on the other side of the Dnipro they are using artillery to hit Kherson, against those of whom yesterday they were saying that “we are one people”. And in Kyiv, you see it’s not that dangerous, but they started using Iranian rockets and drones.
AND: At the beginning of the war, we asked you: “What is victory?” And your answer was, ‘Save as many lives as possible. Because land is good, but it’s only a territory. Without people, it means nothing. How has your sense of victory changed?
VZ: My attitude towards people has not changed at all. The fact that people resisted [the invasion] shows that they have a simple truth, and it resides in their family, in their land, in their flag. When they defend the land, it’s not something abstract, it’s real, it’s part of it. Defending land and territory means only one thing: protecting life and purpose.
They cannot live without these very important things. If I can use the word “things” when I talk about family, children, land, their homes. All are part of the people. A very important part.
People don’t want to change that, and they don’t want to change their identity. They defend it. But that’s the key: choose what you want, but don’t choose for me, because there’s nothing worse than a life without freedom.
Victory will come when you feel that people have endured everything and kept everything. And people don’t want to compromise on territory. Why? The problem is deeper than the earth. No one wants to dialogue with these people who have unleashed [the war]. Because people [have come to] to hate. It’s the truth.
It’s not the best feeling that humanity can hate, but it’s fundamental. In real life when being mugged for so long and seeing that most families have lost something or someone. It is a tragedy for families who have lost children. I don’t want to live longer than my children. I will hate this life with these people who took my wishes, a piece of me. That’s why people hate it.
AND : You are now making the choice to continue – you were talking about advancing to the 1991 borders – or to say: no, the price would be too high.
ZV: Why am I against freezing this war? Because in the Donbass we have already seen it. They take away some territory and then freeze it for a while, to become more powerful occupiers, ready for more occupation, and that’s it.
We don’t need to lose people unnecessarily. Understand: we are not at war with Russia; Russia is at war with us on our territory. They must withdraw. Of course, they will pay for generations. You will see, any aggression has a high cost. But that’s in the future. Today is how it should end because otherwise it’s not over, it’s just frozen. Just leave it as it is now, say, ok, let’s stop and they take Donbass, the south of our country, or part of it, and Crimea stays with them… Why? “Because it’s time to do it and you should”? We can’t, no one will forgive it.
AND : But how many lives will you lose?
ZV: Russia has come and they are killing our people. And what should we tell people? “Take everything that is ours, and we will go to Poland”? Many have left, but the majority of the country has stayed, and is not going anywhere else and will hold on until the end.
AND : Tony Blinken, the US Secretary of State, talks about settling on the February 23 model. Can you see this as a scenario?
ZV: It wouldn’t be a final, because no one understands what security guarantees mean. We had the Budapest Memorandum. I was told, “Don’t be afraid, everything is fine, there are no nuclear weapons. And it’s the right way, and the whole world is going for it. But the whole world did not come, as we have seen.
We gave away nuclear weapons, traded them for security guarantees. Have these safeguards worked? No. For Russia’s aggression against the principles of peace, against international law, against many things, against the Charter of the United Nations, etc. Why is Ukraine alone paying such a high price? We are grateful to our supporters, but we pay.
Yesterday the President of the Russian Federation said that “Azov” is a big operation, it can last a long time. He said something about Peter I, [something along the lines of]: “He didn’t succeed, but I did.” We are not at an appointment with the psychiatrist. It’s real. It is as if Napoleon lived in this room and President Putin in this one.
AND : So how do you demonstrate to Putin that he can’t win this war?
ZV: The end is already clear. Why do I say “we have to go to our borders”? Because if it doesn’t work, he’ll come back. You see? This is the main story. We are not in NATO. What are the security guarantees? If he comes back, will they help us again with weapons? Can it really protect us from a full-scale invasion? No.
We have to look at the real situation, when the whole world, first of all, not only shows its support, but diplomatically, economically, with sanctions, isolation shows that aggression must be paid for. To go to the borders and then pay.
How many people is Putin[ready to kill]?… He takes people from both sides. He takes our people and sends his citizens to be killed. If he withdraws now to the 1991 borders, then the possible path of diplomacy will begin. This is what can change the war from a military path to a diplomatic one. He alone can do it.
AND : But that requires the fall of the Putin government.
ZV: The sooner the war ends and Russia chooses the path to acknowledging the tragic mistake of starting it, the longer the Russian president will secure his life and that of those around him.
AND :How important do you think it is to keep talking to Russians?
ZV: The citizens of this land allowed the leader they elected to seize and kill another land. Are they responsible? Yes. There are criminals and there are those who were silent for a very long time and then said, “We cannot be silent.
If they believe they are good Russians, they will definitely oppose the regime, do everything to bring down the regime, and it will fall. It’s a question of time. If it falls and you were there and did everything you could, the whole world would be cheering.
Prove it to your kids. Don’t be afraid, come out, talk. They took you away for 25 days? What’s so terrible? Here they took a life, took a child forever, killed a person forever. Why are you comparing? “I was released, I was taken away for 25 days, I have already done my job.” No, you didn’t. Why? Because for many years you kept silent. And you are not guilty before me, you are guilty before yourself.
AND : How do you reconcile the strategy with the fact that people want their children back?
ZV: For today, we don’t need it because more than 95 or 96 percent of the people want to deoccupy all their territory after Russia has done it. I think the big mistake was in 2014, but the biggest mistake, the tragic one, was February 24, because that’s the point [after which] no one wants to go back, no compromise. [Putin] knows his audience. He knew that if Russian society did not support him, he would not go. That’s why after February 24, everyone is guilty. How could it be otherwise? Is Putin brave? No. He’s an opportunist. And if he had this opportunity to attack Ukraine, it means that society supported him. ■
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